Question for truck types.

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 12/02/2015 at 13:51 • Filed to: Question time

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I’ve been following along with the Nissan XD for a little while I’m not sure that there are enough buyers of the 2/3rds ton niche to really make a splash I’m hopeful that the truck will finally do well here, mainly because there is no reason a Japanese truck (even though its pretty much American) can’t do well here other than brand loyalty and because Innovation in the segment is a good thing. Assuming this pays off for Nissan (and I guess even if it doesn’t) what would it take for the next best looser, The Toyota Tundra, to finally make a dent in the domestic trucks market share?

Engine?

Styling?

Price?

Configuration?

Capability?

3/4 or 1 ton options?

Is it more important to chase big numbers in power, towing and payload? or to chase comfort, mileage and refinement?

I’m curious as to what the community here would peg as being important in a half ton from Mr. T.

Sam > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 13:59

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It would take social reform. Proud, American blue collar workers wouldn’t be caught dead in “one of those dern’ Jap trucks”. Basically, most farmers and other blue collar workers are pretty anti-foreign vehicle. So it will never be as popular as the American trucks.

HammerheadFistpunch > Sam 12/02/2015 at 14:01

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I think that’s the stereotype...I wonder how true it is. Most farm types I know are just looking for the best truck, though their kids are just looking for whatever makes them look douchiest. Nothing wrong with picking a domestic, they are great trucks and a point of pride that we know how to make great trucks...but I have to hope that at least a large chunk of people are smart enough to go with “best truck wins”

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > Sam 12/02/2015 at 14:02

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Surprisingly, most of the west Texas / east NM ranchers I encountered (context: dozens) drove Tundras. They all thought that they were more reliable in the desert.

For Sweden > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:03

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Price and advertising.

Market inertia is a thing. There really is no reason to buy a Tundra over a Ford/Chevrolet/Ram.

HammerheadFistpunch > For Sweden 12/02/2015 at 14:05

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Undercut on price and market the shit out of it? I know Toyota really put some meat behind the 2nd gen Tundra when it launched...you know the same kind of “Our trucks nuts are 23% larger than the competitor” nonsense...and it did seem to work at first.

For Sweden > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:06

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It’s the same problem Hyundai’s having with selling the Genesis/Equus to people who typically buy German luxury cars. If there’s not a good reason to switch, why switch?

Sam > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:06

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Well, the F150 sales numbers speak for themselves. The Tundra is far better than an F150, but being a Toyota means that a lot of Ford and Chevy purists won't even consider it.

HammerheadFistpunch > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 12/02/2015 at 14:07

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This is my experience as well; actual farm/ranch types aren’t as stupid as the stereotype and will shop for the truck they think will be the best investment for them, and they leave brand loyalty (mostly) at the door.

HammerheadFistpunch > For Sweden 12/02/2015 at 14:09

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so...you can’t outsame the next guy? So that leaves you with 2 choices

1. Make it different (TITAN XD)

2. Make it as good (or better) but cheaper.

#2 seems is more like the Toyota way...but it doesn’t seem to work in the truck OR luxury sedan segment for some reason.

HammerheadFistpunch > Sam 12/02/2015 at 14:10

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I wouldn’t say the Tundra is far better (it was once) but I do think that it didn’t get the recognition it deserved when new.

Hammerdown > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:12

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I’m from rural South Dakota and most of my friends are farmers/ranchers who USE their pickups every day. The main reason they buy domestic is because they’re a known entity for repair and parts. They know the strong and weak points of the Chevys and Fords, know how to fix them, and know that the local shop in the closest small town probably has parts on hand if something goes wrong. Probably not so for a Nissan. For that reason, most stick to the big three.

Captain of the Enterprise > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:13

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I’m in Michigan and at least here there is a very strong American only truck thing. Most people are either die hard GM or Ford and rip on each other. I do know some guys like me that don’t have a problem with other brands but wouldn’t be buying one new.

Its what American manufacturers do best and we see a real impact here with the big three in the state. I go to class in Dearborn and can drive down to the Rough plant and watch an F150 get made if I want. We know people who either build them, design them or work for one of the companies so we want to support them more.

Sam > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:14

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I guess it was a bit of an exaggeration, not far better but the price-performance was very good. It also had the highest towing capacity of any new gas truck when my dad was shopping in 2008. 10,800 pounds to tow a 3,000 pound Airstream.

HammerheadFistpunch > Hammerdown 12/02/2015 at 14:15

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So its like a military procurement plan - its less about the product and more about logistics. Hmm. That being said, what town doesn’t have a Toyota dealership?

HammerheadFistpunch > Captain of the Enterprise 12/02/2015 at 14:17

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I understand that there are geographical ties to brand loyalty, which is why both Nissan and Toyota have worked so hard to build (and promote that they build) their trucks in the US with US labor. That being said, there is something in people that finds it unpalatable to “Send money overseas”

Sneaky Pete > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:17

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Dad sold his old Tundra and bought a Diesel GMC full-size truck because of towing capacity. If Toyota had a diesel Tundra with similar towing capacity, he would’ve bought one instead of the GMC. For Toyota to make a dent, they need to actually compete with the domestics capability wise.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:19

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I doubt they could considering how Tundras as of late relied on retooled UZ/UR engines commonly found in Lexuses...

HammerheadFistpunch > Sneaky Pete 12/02/2015 at 14:21

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You are the second person to make a comment like that. I think there is something to be said for being able to fit all the buyers who are shopping. I know Toyota has the ability to produce a heavy truck to rival the domestics, but they lack the will...they just keep waiting it out, hoping people will suddenly start buying their trucks so they can justify expanding the range. FYI - Toyota makes and sells a twin turbo 4.5 liter diesel with 265 hp and 480 lbs-ft (a VERY conservative number that’s meant to drastically extend the life of the engine) that’s would be ideally suited to a heavy half or a light 3/4 like the TITAN, but it would need to be tuned up and cleaned up a little. 300+ hp and 520+ lbs-ft would be pretty easy to achieve and still be economical and reliable.

Captain of the Enterprise > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:23

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Maybe they would rather send the money here.

deekster_caddy > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:23

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A lot of trucks are bought because ‘murica and not because they need a truck. So the truck’s features and specs are completely irrelevant. As far as drivetrains are concerned, the ‘murica truck buyers think all Toyota trucks are still powered by the 22R.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:23

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I think engine is more important than people think, Toyota needs to at least offer a diesel even if they don’t sell many. It’s a perception thing, it may be only a half-ton, but being Toyota’s only full size truck it basically competes against the entire range of full sizers from 1/2 ton to 1 ton. Ford, Dodge, Chevy and now Nissan all have a diesel option for their full size trucks which help give all their trucks credibility in the average buyers eyes.

As far as what I look for it’s a combination of everything with an emphasis on the drive train and reliability. I hope this new Nissan does well and proves reliable. If so I think I will be looking for V8 Cummins in a few years.

Andrew P. Collins > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:24

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Tundra is one of the most underrated 4x4s you can buy in America. Even old ones. Rant on this coming soon...

Edit:

“Sort of” underrated. Not if you look at resale value.

450X_FTW > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:25

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I would take one to be honest. I’d love to have a diesel truck, and being a Ram guy, the 3.0L ecodiesel is not enough, the 6.7L cummins is too much, and now the 5.0 is right in the middle, which is something I would love to have

HammerheadFistpunch > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 12/02/2015 at 14:25

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I’m not sure what the issue with that is. The UR and UZ are well regarded engines in their own right and its not like truck buyers are going to be turned off by an associated to Lexus.

vicariousILive > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:26

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In Southeast Idaho, where I’m from, all of the ranchers have a diesel 3/4 -1 ton truck. As I was growing up there seemed to be a lot of flip flopping in between the domestic brands. People talked how they liked cummins better than a powerstroke but I think it just gave them an excuse to say “ i’d rather be cumming than stroking”

So I think it comes down to capability. i wouldn’t want to be hauling a heavy ass camper/horse trailer gooseneck or a load 1st crop hay without a dually diesel. So far the only companies that make those kinds of vehicles are Dodge, Ford and Chevy

A lot of farmers would have their second vehicle pickup and there were Nissans, Toyotas and S-10s. My dad had a Mazda because he didn’t want to drive is 1 ton 454 Chevy all around. Have you ever drove a large truck in town?...no thanks

HammerheadFistpunch > Andrew P. Collins 12/02/2015 at 14:27

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I haven’t spent enough time in one to be able to provide detailed analysis, but I can tell you its the truck you buy if you like spacious interiors.

HammerheadFistpunch > 450X_FTW 12/02/2015 at 14:27

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Its going to be interesting to see if this “tweener” strategy pays off.

HammerheadFistpunch > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 12/02/2015 at 14:29

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Rumor has it that Toyota is rethinking their diesel policy for light trucks in America...or were before dieselgate...it will be interesting to see what they do. I know, for example, that the new Tacoma is compatible with the Hilux’ diesel engine as-is. They have a Diesel V8 that could be made competitive in the half ton segment and they certainly have the clout to make it happen.

6Cylinder > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:29

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I’m in the laborers Union and its true to an extent. The old timers swear by American trucks but as the new generation comes in, its more of a “may the best truck win” as you were saying.

HammerheadFistpunch > vicariousILive 12/02/2015 at 14:30

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I think that’s what the Nissan XD is aiming for. A “heavy” truck that isn’t horrible in town.

vicariousILive > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:32

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He has a good point. In Southeasr Idaho, the last i knew, there was 1 Toyota dealer

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:33

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Mine.

HammerheadFistpunch > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 12/02/2015 at 14:34

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Does it have the other 3? Cause if not then you are locked in to whatever’s there automatically I guess

HammerheadFistpunch > Captain of the Enterprise 12/02/2015 at 14:38

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I see that, but its not like Toyota and Nissan aren’t sending the money right back to pay their workers salaries.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Sam 12/02/2015 at 14:38

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the contractor i have been working with has a Tundra for him and his some who is #2 in the company

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:38

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We have a Chevy/Buick dealer and a Ram/Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge dealer. About 10 miles away here’s a Ford dealer and another Mopar. Nearest dealers for foreign manufactures are around 30 miles away.

HammerheadFistpunch > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 12/02/2015 at 14:39

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So its either a Chevy or a Ram, which begs the question: are there are lot of super duties still? I’m going to bet there are.

HammerheadFistpunch > deekster_caddy 12/02/2015 at 14:45

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Im not sure I honestly believe any of this. I think the 22R generation is dying out and many (if not all) truck buyers have at least some motivation to drive a truck: Hunting, tow a boat, camping, etc.

BigBlock440 > Sam 12/02/2015 at 14:45

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2008 was a long ways back and the Tundra is pretty much the same truck. Every one of the big 3 has received at least 1 update/refresh, some of them 2, since then. The Tundra is not far better than the F150 in any metric other than being built in Texas, but being built in Texas is a terrible metric to measure against for the majority of shoppers.

Hammerdown > vicariousILive 12/02/2015 at 14:46

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There’s 4 in all of South Dakota....

https://www.google.com/maps/search/to…

deekster_caddy > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:48

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I’m being slightly sarcastic, didn’t come off well, but serious at the same time. Most people I know who buy F150s, 1500 silverados have no need for a truck. They like to sit up high and have 4WD to feel more invincible. They have other foreign cars. So there’s unspoken drawing them to big ‘murica pickup trucks.

That said, the new 1/2 ton 4WD pickups get amazingly good MPG for what they are. It’s not like they are looking at a 20MPG minivan vs a 12MPG truck.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:50

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All of the above. First things first, it’s not as capable as any big 3 truck, and now not even as capable as a Titan, with the 5/8 ton coming. You can say “that’s just marketing” all you want for this next point, but we all saw the COMEDIC bed waggle in that Ford test. That’s a deal breaker for many, even if those conditions will never be encountered. There’s that whole “towing-the-space-shuttle” thing, but then one of the people working on it admitted that it could be done by any truck with “xyzcantremember torque number”. Surprize, the Tundra isn’t on top there either. Throw in the frame rust thing (you know as well as I do the industry takes a loooong time to forget things) and what it adds up to (for anyone on the fence) is anything it can do the big 3 can do better.

The only way it’s getting out of THAT rut is by pulling the Cadillac stunt of improving drastically while undercutting on price. Granted this so far hasn’t quite worked out for Caddy.

Engine-wise, a diesel would be a good step, but there’s been diesel Tundra rumors since forever. If they DID finally do a diesel, it would be a good idea to do 3/4 and 1 ton variants as well like you suggested. This would distance them from the new Titan and more into the established markets. Kinda “making waves without ruffling feathers”. Let Nissan have their white space. Plus, the fact that they had them would make people think hey, maybe their frames aren’t made of cheese anymore.

Styling is not exactly their strength with the Tundra. It isn’t simple (like the old T100), it’s busy. Nor does it look especially tough (Big 3 trucks, and actually the Titan as well now). If it was one or the other (or both) it would be OK, but no. It’s just blobby and glitzy and yet somehow still bland. It has, in my mind, absolutely no redeeming features. If I were to buy this, one of the things going through my head would be “I’m buying something that looks this awful because _____”, fill in the blanks Toyota. Cheap? Tough? Capable? At the moment, the Tundra doesn’t fill those categories as well as the big 3. Better yet, remove the need for that blank altogether.

Basically, I think they first need to concentrate on getting the package together. It doesn’t matter what they chase now, they are outclassed everywhere. Undercut if possible. Ride the hell out of their reputation of overall reliability.

Here's an idea I had. Build (and market market market this point afterwards) it to the same tough specs as the Land Cruiser. Even though it would turn out more expensive, I would seriously consider buying one (financial situation permitting of course). And this is coming from, frankly, a GM truck fanboy.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:50

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It’s more Chevy/GMC and Ford than Ram to be completely honest. Probably 60% GM, 35% Ford, 5% Dodge/Ram.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:52

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The first-generation 1UZ engine was the pinnacle. Everything else... Not so great. They even had to kill the TRD supercharger upon discovering the rods in the later UZ would shatter upon the slightest boost.

Sam > BigBlock440 12/02/2015 at 14:52

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I’m actually amazed that all they’ve done to the Tundra is a facelift. They should really do a refresh soon if they want to be even somewhat competitive.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Sam 12/02/2015 at 14:53

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It may have been when it came out, but Toyota has left both it's trucks FAR to long. The Taco is forgivable as it didn't really have competition, but the Tundra, in a highly competitive segment, is now thoroughly outclassed and has been for some time.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:58

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For Toyota to make a dent in the Big 3 truck market share they need to build a decent truck. The current Tundra is a terrible truck, and buying one was the single most expensive mistake I have made in my life.

In January of 2010 I bought a new 2010 Tundra. Since the nearest Toyota dealer is 2 hours away from me it wasn’t easy and I didn’t get to spend a lot of time with the truck or get much of a test drive before I bought it. The test drive went well and the truck seemed to be a good truck, there wasn’t anything that jumped out at me as being weird and they had a good reputation so I bought it. Then I got it home and started putting more time into it. The first thing I noticed was the abysmal mileage. It was significantly worse than my 2002 GMC. Like ~12mpg worth of abysmal. Even on a few long trips that I took with it, I don’t think the best tank of gas cracked 16mpg. Then the throttle tip in. Wow was that bad. If your toe wiggled you’d get whiplash from how sensitive the throttle opening was at low speed. Hit a little bit of washboard pulling away from a stop? You’re going to have a bad time. The bumps would put your foot in the gas, then the truck would take off out from under you so your foot would come off the gas, repeat until you’re car sick inside of 50 yards.

Since the first service was free at the dealership I took advantage of that. It wasn’t particularly convenient since I live 2 hours away, but was heading in that general direction for a work conference. It would add about an hour of drive time and 1/2 hour or so for the oil change, but hey, it was free. It took the dealer well over 2 hours to do a simple oil change. An oil change that I had scheduled well ahead of time. So service at the not conveniently located Toyota dealership is terrible. No big deal, there is a good quick lube place in town. So the next oil change rolls around and I show up at the quick lube. “Sorry, we can’t get you in, that truck needs to get the skid plate removed to change the oil. We need to schedule in extra time and it’ll be an extra $20.” If I took the plate off myself I would be able to drive in and it wouldn’t take any extra time or charges, so I went home to take off the skid plate and bring it in the next day. The skid plate is held on by a boatload of fasteners. In 2 or 3 different sizes. And after one midwest winter 25% of the fasteners were frozen in place by rust. After 1/2 hour of rolling around on the ground getting that fucking skid plate off I was done with that truck.

I now drive a 2011 F-150 and love it. It is worlds better than the Tundra, the dealer is only 20 miles away and they give great service.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 14:59

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I don’t think chasing the XD path is good for Toyota. Their big thing is doing mainstream stuff really well. For them to break out of the mold seems a little desperate, and at the moment a little knee-jerk to the XD. Which doesn't lead to good results. Anyway, there isn’t really much room for “different” in a market whose key features are bed, cab, ladder frame. For Nissan to do something odd is OK. They've always been a little quirky.

HammerheadFistpunch > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 12/02/2015 at 15:01

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I’ll counter with some points that I hope don’t come off as confrontational, more just from the other side.

1. The frame flex thing was stupid and if you base your truck buying decision on it than I don’t care what you buy because there is no logic worth convincing. It was simply a matter of finding a weakness in the harmonics and exploiting it, you could do it with any truck (i.e. look at ford/chevy, chevy/ram etc.) Toyota doesn’t do that (good or bad) but rather points out the strengths of their own trucks in the marketing. i.e. its got a MUCH stronger axles than any other half ton (including the new Nissan). Some say they should fight dirty like the others, it might help...works in politics.

2.The frame rust issue was on compact trucks, never on the Tundra, and its not like its a problem unique to Toyota. ALL domestics have had their shares. Hell, find me a Super Duty frame in the rust belt that doesn’t look held together with hope. To be honest, I think this sticking point is less an less an issues all the time.

3. I agree that Toyota needs some engine variety...badly.

4. The styling isn’t great, but its last generation, so we’ll see where it goes from here. Ditto payload, ditto towing, ditto mileage. I’m not talking about brand new trucks against mildly refreshed old ones, I’m talking about Gen3 Tundra. Don’t forget, when it came on the scene it was winning these top trump games.

5. Re: Land Cruiser - This is unnecessary as

a. most people don’t know/don’t care why land cruisers are built the way they are

b. in some ways the Tunrda’s are built stronger than land cruiser

c. They can’t have them built in the same plant in Japan because: chicken tax.

HammerheadFistpunch > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 12/02/2015 at 15:04

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Your information is wrong; They stopped selling the TRD kit because it was designed for the Land Cruiser with Forged rods and the regular 2UZ didn’t have them. The UZ/UR are rock solid, the LS from Japan so to speak.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > deekster_caddy 12/02/2015 at 15:04

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It comes down to “where’s the downside?”

The truck is practical, safe, fast, more fun to drive than the crossover alternative, not terribly inefficient anymore, and if you wnat downright luxurious. The American luxury land yacht hasn’t died, it’s just grown a bed and a 4wd system.

The downside happens to be how big it is and that it’s not as fun to drive as a smaller car. As most people aren’t car freaks, they can live with that. And not being too interested in cars, of COURSE bigger means safer.

I say this as a truck owner, btw. Though a small one.

Captain of the Enterprise > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 15:05

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They don’t see that, it’s part of the problem. A lot of people only see the badge on the front and stop thinking after that, to them all Fords(ETC.) are U.S. made and all Hondas (ETC) are from Japan. They are wrong but they don’t care. The majority of car and truck buyers in the U.S. are nowhere near as educated as we are. They buy and use them like appliances and probably just buy whatever their parents bought and don’t think about it after that.

We are the outliers because we know the truth because we care more and want to know. Most people don’t and couldn’t be bothered to know.

There could also be a racist element to it, or a fear of things that are different in general or it’s an allegiance passed down in a “my dad NEVER would have bought a foreign car and neither would I” kind of way.

Andrew P. Collins > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 15:07

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You know I do!

HammerheadFistpunch > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 12/02/2015 at 15:08

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Sounds like you had a bad dealer experience. Other than that the mileage and throttle calibration complaints are spot on. Both due to a nutty final drive ratio, a very torquey engine and a desire to feel tough.To be fair, its actually a VERY fast truck. There are bugs to work out, but this is true of any truck.

HammerheadFistpunch > Captain of the Enterprise 12/02/2015 at 15:10

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So true. So sadly true.

BigBlock440 > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 15:11

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I’m curious as to what the community here would peg as being important in a half ton from Mr. T.

A 3/4 and 1 ton version and about 30 more years. Most pickups are good enough that “it’s what my dad drove” is as valid a reason as any. Then there’s fleet consistency. Every vehicle I’ve owned except my ‘73 uses the same oil filter, from a 2.5 V6 to a 5.7 V8 as an example.

They also need an update every once in a while. The current Tundra is essentially the same truck that came out in 2007. Every one of the Big three has gone through at least one generation change, and have gone through multiple refreshes/updates since. Even the oldest of the big three, the Ram, has seen the addition of a new V6 gas, a brand new V6 diesel, an 8-speed transmission, an air suspension, etc. All have much improved fuel economy breaking into the mid to high-20’s, while the Tundra is still stuck in mid-teens. It also doesn’t have near the level of configurations the big 3 trucks do with only 2 engines, 1 transmission, and 1 rear axle ratio.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 12/02/2015 at 15:11

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I never liked the styling of the latest Tundra and I think you described it perfectly “blobby and glitzy and yet somehow still bland”. It’s like they’re trying to make it look tough but instead just made it look fat then tried to make it look more upscale but instead made it look gaudy but somehow still managed to make it true to the Toyota stereotype and make it bland

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 15:12

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Actually...

If I remember correctly, the Land Cruiser at the time relied on the 2UZ engine, no?

HammerheadFistpunch > BigBlock440 12/02/2015 at 15:14

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YES to updates. Same story with the Titan. You gotta stay fresh in this game ESPECIALLY if you are the underdog.

HammerheadFistpunch > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 12/02/2015 at 15:14

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Yes, the Land Cruiser used the 2uz, but with Forged internals.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 15:18

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The only problem is how they’re still absurdly skinny compared to the old 1UZ rod. I doubt the difference in material could still support some assisted boost.

HammerheadFistpunch > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 12/02/2015 at 15:19

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It could and did. The rods in the Land Cruiser hold up very well to the supercharger.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 15:21

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Except it’s still one batch of engines compared to... I don’t know, everything else?

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 15:23

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It got to the point that every time I got into the truck there was something else that started to drive me nuts. It turned into death by 1,000 cuts, nothing really major, but every little thing was just off. The throttle calibration was mind blowingly bad though.

There are two features from the Tundra that I wish the Ford had. The Tundra had a three line display for the radio. This is nice on satellite radio since I could see the station, artist and song at the same time. Ford has a two line display so I can only see artist and song. The other thing was the tailgate damper that is integrated into the Tundra. I have since added a tailgate damper to the Ford so you can drop the tailgate and let it go to open it. Ford has since leapfrogged the Tundra and the new ones have the option of a tailgate you can drop from the key fob.

In my opinion the F-150 does everything the Tundra does, does it much better and is much more polished. OK, I gave up ~500 pounds of towing capacity, but gained 20-30% better mileage. Considering the heaviest thing I regularly need to tow is a 7,000 pound camper, going from 10,300 pounds to 9,800 pounds of towing capacity isn’t really a sacrifice.

HammerheadFistpunch > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 12/02/2015 at 15:30

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Im not sure what you mean. The UR/UZ engines are insanely reliable engines, you just can’t cram boost down their throats. Also, the UR has a supercharger so this is a moot point.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 15:33

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I don’t give a shit, I’m always up for an argument. Though I, too, would prefer that these be taken in the same light :)

1. I never said it wasn’t, but marketing is done for a reason. It’s to sway those on the fence. The way for Toyota to fix this one is not to say “it’s sufficient for most people, come look at our other features”. It’s to build the best damn frame they know how, and stick it up Ford’s nose. Basically take a well-publicised not-so-much-of-an-issue and PROVE it’s no longer valid.

2. Like #1. It may be a non-issue to those who actually research, but “Toyota truck no no no frame rust” still happens. More than that, actually. A coworker of one of my friends had a Tundra he had to replace the frame on. Now I, who am not in the market for a Tundra, have no interest in researching it. A Taco, maybe. I didn’t know until your comment that it was just the Taco with the rust issues. In my mind, I made the connection of Toyota truck/rust issues/replace frame... well, that’s it then, even a recent Tundra had rust issues. It’s an issue that needs to be attacked head on, because people who have no interest (in this case like me) in a vehicle hear some things, jump to conclusions and inadvertantly spread inaccuracies. Broken telephone is more than a game, it’s a marketing nightmare.

3. Well, that’s it then.

4. We’ll see, yes. But Toyota seems to take things that had simple, clean styling and glitz them up into things that are just a hideous mess. Think new prius, new Yaris, current Sienna (which was a welcome change when it came out but now all the GTI effect changes are dragging it the wrong direction), that hydrogen thing. The Camry and Corolla aren’t there yet, but they’re getting there. Especially if the latest wave of concepts is anything to go by. On the capability front, they better shoot high, judging by how often they like to change their trucks. It was winning the TT’s when it came out, but consider that most the trucks it was competing against were coming to the end of their production cycles. The exception being the GMT900 twins, which launched at the same time. Which were close when they started and ahead when they finished.

5. I’m not saying advertise “made like a Land Cruiser”, I’m saying overbuild it like a Land Cruiser and advertise how tough it’s built. Of course you COULD slip in a couple references...

a) See above. They don’t need to. All I’m saying is, Toyota can be better, cheaper, or both. This is simply being better. And use the “dirty politics” game to prove it.

b) So, use those bits.

c) Again, not ACTUALLY building a LC truck here. Building a truck in the MANNER of the LC. In Texas, where it is now.

HammerheadFistpunch > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 12/02/2015 at 15:47

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Oh I like this game.

1. As For Sweden Said - Toyota needs to get their ass in gear for marketing. They suck at it. As for the actual mechanics, its a weight saving measure and it works, semi trucks do just fine with open C rails, its just idiots who think otherwise. Its not what “big tough truck guys” want to hear, but they are idiots.

2. its actually a non-issue. I know people who’ve had ford/dodge/chevy frames replaced or scraped. Rust happens to trucks in rusty places, and if you think its only an “X brand” thing...then see above.

3. Seriously Toyota, more engines!

4. Again, I agree on the styling, I think its ugly. I also agree they need to do better at keeping it current. I have no doubt the new trucks will be class competitive or better in capacity.

5. These trucks are made just as well or better than a domestic..But again they need to do a better job about marketing it.

a. they do it better and cheaper

b. They do use those parts

c. The Toyota way is a finely honed model, and the San Antonio plant is a model of efficiency, though its still not the flagship plant but to be fair the Tahara plant is considered the best plant in the world so its hard to beat.

Now I leave you with some Tunrda Marketing to see what I mean.

They do the whole “tough truck” stuff, but they lost momentum over the years...which was the main problem imo with their marketing.

Yossarian > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 16:19

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I think styling. Something different than the same truck that’s been out since ‘08.

Living on the west coast, I think truck buyers are less concerned about it being domestic and more about it being the best. When the Titan first came out I remember seeing A LOT on the road, same with the Tundra. Toyota having the same truck while Ford and Chevy are already two product cycles forward hurts. Consumers, at least here, are looking for the best and newest, and you can’t say the Toyota is that right now.

HammerheadFistpunch > Yossarian 12/02/2015 at 16:22

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Yeah the next generation Tundra can’t come soon enough...they REALLY need better cycles for this product to be competitive.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 16:30

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Oh yeah.

1. Absolutely correct on marketing. However, on the C-frame rails, there’s more to it than that. If the frame is stiffer, you can tow more weight safely, and with today’s towing wars that’s always a sticking point. On the other hand, one of the reasons the Super Duty sticks with C-frames is the upfitters like it better. Having punched holes in my boxed frame for a swaybar, I can absolutely see why. Switching sides again, semi frames are not at all like pickup frames. They are tempered to acheive a much higher rigidity (which is what the full box frame is meant to do on a pickup). The advantage is less material cost and easier mounting of accessories, the downside is that you need to be VERY careful when installing said accessories. Never going near the top and bottom webs, and if you ever drill even a TINY hole in one of those webs, the truck is no longer safe due to the way the frame was tempered. Long story short, semi frames to boxed pickup frames isn’t really a fair comparison because they are using different meant to the same end.

2. It is a non-issue, yes. However like I said, the reputation is an issue. If they could make an absolutely perfect frame for several years, this problem would go away, but as it is every time a frame fails the association of the uninterested party is I heard about something like that a while ago... loltoyotaframerust. The only way I can see to fix it (as nobody is perfect and therefore the perfect frame isn’t an option) is a complete and thorough overhaul of the truck’s image. Completely redesign the frame, no matter how unneeded it might be. Publicise this action. Alternately, pull the trick of re-engineering the most common pain points and renaming/restyling the truck. People are fickle and stupid, it could work.

3. ARE YOU LISTENING TOYOTA!!!

4. OK, settled. But once again we come to marketing.

5. You know what, I don't even see the point in doing this one. I put forward an off the top of my head suggestion, and like the others it's come back to marketing. It's pretty clear what the issue is :/

vicariousILive > Hammerdown 12/02/2015 at 16:41

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and i counted 18 dealers for Chevy in South Dakota.

vicariousILive > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 16:47

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Haha i liked the larger brake rotors one. “Here are some larger brake rotors...now you have to put on 20 inch wheels”

HammerheadFistpunch > vicariousILive 12/02/2015 at 16:49

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Yeah, these over mach ads are the worst, I hates them all.

Textured Soy Protein > Sam 12/02/2015 at 16:52

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Brand new full-sized pickups are expensive. They are not purchased by Proud American blue collar workers, because Proud American blue collar workers cannot afford brand new full-sized pickup trucks. They are instead purchased by Proud American district sales managers at Proud American small-to-medium manufacturing, agricultural, and IT solutions companies. They are also purchased by Proud American small business owners who don’t really have any business need for a full-sized pickup but can buy whatever vehicle they feel like and write it off as a business expense.

Hammerdown > vicariousILive 12/02/2015 at 16:58

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So combine that, with that fact that far more of the big three are sold in SD than Toyotas, and you have a shortage of parts. If you take your new Tundra in for a repair, you can about guarantee that they’ll be overnighting parts in.

vicariousILive > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 17:01

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Yeah i purposefully forgot about the braking before the cliff scene and the teeter-totter. I completely looked over the Tundra’s capability because of their fake testing methods and u hated how they tried to cater to the hicks by using the Sam Elliott impersonated spokesperson.

To do a proper truck commercial you need to haul some hay and some livestock and then splash mud everywhere. They closest they got to that was in the Español version

PS9 > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 17:35

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We can’t really rely on personal experience to tell us what buyers are doing and why. We have to look at the whole truck market to answer that, and this is what is happening; Numbers 1-4 at the top of the market are occupied by US brands. And #4 doesn’t even count because that’s just a rebadged K2XX. The closest foreign competitor still loses to the rebadged chevy. Everyone else who isn’t wearing a bow tie, an oval, an acronym, or a chrome horn shield is not even a little bit competitive with the top 4.

This is the reality; eighty percent of this market’s volume is tied up in american brands . I’m sorry, but your hope that people in this market just want a better truck and nothing else is unfounded given this reality. If you want to get volume with your full sized truck in the US, there damned well better be an american brand on that grill if you want the market to give you a second look.

HammerheadFistpunch > PS9 12/02/2015 at 17:38

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You are probably right, but there isn’t enough data here to infer who is buying what and why, only that more people are buying trucks with a stepped history in this country versus new comers.

PS9 > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 17:53

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There’s no need to ‘infer’ anything. The truck market prefers american brands. That’s what these numbers say. It’s not an interpretation or an opinion. It’s also not a recent phenomenon. The F150/Silverado/RAM trifecta has been at the top of the market for at least as long as these numbers have been publically available, and the F150 itself has been America’s best selling vehicle for 32 freaking years. We don’t need anymore data to tell why perfectly acceptable alternatives from foreign brands don’t get any traction in this market when their offerings do just fine in every other segment.

HammerheadFistpunch > PS9 12/02/2015 at 18:06

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Given that The Foreign FS trucks are relatively new comers you could also interpret it as there only have been 3 choices to dominate the top 3 spots. To a degree this data only conclusively tells me that the other trucks have had more time in market, it doesn’t tell me anything about preference or choice.

Spoon II > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 19:08

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I honestly think most people are attracted to the toys. All the other trucks have things like heated/cooled seats, giant entertainment screens, and whatnot available at a lower price point. Whereas, with Toyota, you just get an incredibly reliable vehicle. The Toyota is definitely the smarter choice though if you need something to last forever.

PS9 > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 21:29

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How long exactly do you think Japanese trucks have been on the US market? You make it sound like a serious push to grab market share here by them in this segment is something that started happening yesterday. You know the Titan has been on the market for twelve years , right? You know Toyota has had a presence in the US truck market since 1969 , right?

The Tundra was not the first full size truck Toyota tried to sell in the United states; that was the T100 which came out in 1993. That’s Two different nameplates and twenty-three years of effort from Toyota to not at all get anywhere near the american volume leaders in this market.

Not good enough, you say? Okay, then lets get back to the Titan that started out 2003 doing everything right; crew cab, large bed, big 5.6L V8, RWD and 4WD options available. The only thing you couldn’t get with a Titan was diesel power. They did everything right for twelve years and this is their reward;

They are at the bottom of the market now, and not once did they have a sliver of a shot at even the badge swapped Sierra’s volume. The Titan is 12 years old. The Tundra is 13 years old. The newcomers are hardly new anymore; buyers, some of which buy new trucks year-over-year, have had plenty of time to try out foreign brands, and have had plenty of marketing material thrown their way. After more than a decade of putting the americans an nobody else first and foremost, we don’t need anymore data to tell us what it is that they prefer. It obvious by this point.

HammerheadFistpunch > PS9 12/02/2015 at 21:42

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I clearly said full size and no, the t100 was not full size, it had a full size box but was otherwise a hilux underneath. So 2 generations for Toyota and 1 for nissan, if you even call the first gen tundra a true fullsize. 17 years is all that Japanese manufactures have had to crack away at the fs market. Versus 100+ for the domestics. To be honest, that the tundra sells as well as it does for being so old [model year] and new to the market is a testament that the they have a good shot at being a major player if they stick at it

PS9 > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 21:58

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17 years is all that Japanese manufactures have had to crack away at the fs market. Versus 100+ for the domestics.

That right there encapsulates my point perfectly; you cannot have 100 years of market domination by the domestics without also having a market full of consumers totally unwilling to tolerate anything that doesn’t have an american badge on it. It isn’t that those people don’t know alternatives exist. They know that good and well. It’s just that unless said alternative has american branding on it, they don’t care. 20 years or so of trying by foreign brands shows us that.

HammerheadFistpunch > PS9 12/02/2015 at 22:19

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I guess what I’m driving at is the correlation/causation argument. We can make assumptions about the data but the data doesn’t actually tell me that much about what would make a truck class competitive/gain market share.

Vicente Esteve > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 22:30

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“Whatever makes the look douchiest” This is SO true.

Vicente Esteve > HammerheadFistpunch 12/02/2015 at 22:32

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I do hope the new Titan is given a chance, “Japanese” trucks are pretty great.

My father had owned Chevys since the 80’s and in 2009 he did the unthinkable and bought Tacoma. Says it’s the best truck he has ever owned and is looking into the new ones with interest.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > HammerheadFistpunch 12/03/2015 at 03:28

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“I like my trucks like how i like my abuse, domestic”

Destructive Tester > PS9 12/03/2015 at 12:41

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I can’t dispute your numbers, but I am curious about one thing. Do you know if the sales figures for the F-Series, Silverado, Ram, and Sierra include 3/4 and 1 ton sales? If they do, their numbers are going to be inflated by sales of trucks where Toyota and Nissan really haven’t tried to compete...

I’m just curious as by my (very casual and in no way conclusive) observation, a significant number of 1/2 ton trucks are Toyota or Nissan while the majority of the American full-sized pickups I see are 3/4 or 1 ton. It may also just be a local anomaly.